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Saturday, 24 September 2011

Rebuttal for alleged praise of women in Hinduism.

Now I will be dealing with Rebuttals to a few points that some Hindutvawadis claim to Praise of women in Hindu scriptures. I disagree with them totally because I have studied Hindu scriptures & I dont find such thing anywhere in Hinduism.
If at all , if we find such things we can conclude that they are either Quoted out of context or Delibrately Misquoted/ Mistranslated.

The following Quotes are taken from the community "Intro to Hinduism" & the name of the thread is "Women in Hinduism".

I was supposed to give my rebuttals there, but since I took a break, I couldnt do so. Once I finish it here, I will post the same posts in that community, so that they wont get a chance to point finger against me.

Thank you for your support.


Fanatic Hindu states :

Manu Smriti - Chapter 3:
51. No father who knows (the law) must take even the smallest gratuity for his daughter; for a man who, through avarice, takes a gratuity, is a seller of his offspring.
52. But those (male) relations who, in their folly, live on the separate property of women, (e.g. appropriate) the beasts of burden, carriages, and clothes of women, commit sin and will sink into hell.
53. Some call the cow and the bull (given) at an Arsha wedding 'a gratuity;' (but) that is wrong, since (the acceptance of) a fee, be it small or great, is a sale (of the daughter).
54. When the relatives do not appropriate (for their use) the gratuity (given), it is not a sale; (in that case) the (gift) is only a token of respect and of kindness towards the maidens.
55. Women must be honoured and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and brothers-in-law, who desire (their own) welfare.
56. Where women are honoured, there the gods are pleased; but where they are not honoured, no sacred rite yields rewards.
57. Where the female relations live in grief, the family soon wholly perishes; but that family where they are not unhappy ever prospers.
58. The houses on which female relations, not being duly honoured, pronounce a curse, perish completely, as if destroyed by magic.
59. Hence men who seek (their own) welfare, should always honour women on holidays and festivals with (gifts of) ornaments, clothes, and (dainty) food.
60. In that family, where the husband is pleased with his wife and the wife with her husband, happiness will assuredly be lasting.

First page first post!
My Rebuttal: Source same.=Sacred Texts.

Manu Smriti - Chapter 3:

Stress for MALE Child:

48. On the even nights sons are conceived and daughters on the uneven ones; hence a man who desires to have sons should approach his wife in due season on the even (nights).

49. A male child is produced by a greater quantity of male seed, a female child by the prevalence of the female; if (both are) equal, a hermaphrodite or a boy and a girl; if (both are) weak or deficient in quantity, a failure of conception (results).

262. The (sacrificer's) first wife, who is faithful and intent on the worship of the manes, may eat the middle-most cake, (if she be) desirous of bearing a son.

263. (Thus) she will bring forth a son who will be long-lived, famous, intelligent, rich, the father of numerous offspring, endowed with (the quality of) goodness, and righteous.

Stress upon Beauty insted of piouty:

61. For if the wife is not radiant with beauty, she will not attract her husband; but if she has no attractions for him, no children will be born.

62. If the wife is radiant with beauty, the whole house is bright; but if she is destitute of beauty, all will appear dismal.


166. A shepherd, a keeper of buffaloes, the husband of a remarried woman, and a carrier of dead bodies, (all these) must be carefully avoided.

173. He who lasciviously dallies with the widow of a deceased brother, though she be appointed (to bear a child by him) in accordance with the sacred law, must be known to be a Didhishupati.

191. But he who, being invited to a Sraddha, dallies with a Sudra woman, takes upon himself all the sins which the giver (of the feast) committed.

5. A damsel who is neither a Sapinda on the mother's side, nor belongs to the same family on the father's side, is recommended to twice-born men for wedlock and conjugal union.

Fanatic Hindu says:

Some points to be considered while POINTING to Law books in Hinduism:
1. In earlier days, society was run by males by and large. So, rules were according to that. Women were more limited to household chores and were dependent on men - father, brother, husband, sons.. BUT NOW, women are self reliant - they are professionals - even leading companies. So rules are changing too.
2. Earlier days, family structure was more like joint system. But now more and more nuclear family are there... so women are getting more responsibilities for outside chores and men are helping in house chores.
3. Other than these things, all other laws were more or less provided equality to men and women - inheritance girl = boy, being witness - man = woman, occupation - lot of women were responsible for compiling Vedas and other scriptures. They would teach at gurukuls. 

My Rebuttal:

1. Even today the society is run by Males by and large! The Rules or Law of any religion are based on Sacred scriptures, not on society. A society is formed by following the Laws which are based on scriptures. The sacred laws never Change.

What is the meaning of dependence ? Is feeding, clothing, loving & fulfilling the needs of Mother, sister, daughter amount to they being dependent ?

Today 100% Indian women are not professionals. Majority of them live in Rural areas where they are still so called dependent on their Male family members!

Even in Urban areas, Many women are Home makers, sisters & daughter do still depend on Male members till they become professionals!!!!Hence the point is Unreasonable.

2. Joint famalies = Less work coz of division of work.
Nucluar Families = More work coz of non-divison of work.
What does this has to do with Law book of Hinduism ?

There is no statistics that proves that Majority men help their women in house hold chores!

Neither is there any statistics that states there are more nuclear families than Joint, coz we very well know that majority live in Rural areas.

3. The laws didnt provide equality to man & women. (You can refer to my points in my previous posts).

Do refer these verses for further details:

Manu VIII.416

Manu V.148

Manu Smrti IX.3

Manu Smrti V.154

Manu (V.157)

The women's role in compiling the Vedas is minimal, but Major credit does goes to MEN!

"Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be thaught" - Rig Ved 8/33/17

At another place it is written:

"There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna" - Rig Ved 10/95/15. 

Fanatic Hindu says:

Status of Women in Veda
Do you know Vedas are ONLY scriptures that were revealed to WOMEN also?
Similarly woman is designated as:

1. Aditi, because she is not dependent (Nirukta, 4/22)

2. Aghnyā, for she is not to be hurt (Y.V. 8/43)

3. Bŗhatī, for she is large hearted (Y.V. 11/64)

4. Chandrā, because she is happy (Y.V. 8/43)

5. Devakāmā, since she is pious. (A.V. 14/1/47)

6. Devī, since she is divine (A.V. 14/1/45, Y.V. 4/23)

7. Dhruvā, for she is firm (Y.V. 11/64) ā

8. Havyā, because she is worthy of invocation (Y.V. 8/43)

9. Idā, for she is worshippable (Y.V. 8/43)

10. Jyotā, because she is illuminating, bright (Y.V. 8/43)

11. Kāmyā, because she is lovable (Y.V. 8/43)

12. Kshamā, for she is tolerant/indulgent /patient (A.V. 12/1/29)

13. Mahī, since she is great (Y.V. 8/43)

14. Menā, because she deserves respect (Nirukta 3/21/2)

15. Nārī, for she is not inimical to anyone (A.V. 14/1/59)

16. Purandhih, for she is munificent, liberal (Y.V. 22/22)

17. Rantā, because she is lovely (Y.V. 8/43) 

My rebuttal:

If the intention of revealing the Vedas upon women was to increase their status or make them equal to men, why would the same vedas mention;

'Rig Veda' censures women by saying:

"Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be thaught" - Rig Ved 8/33/17

"There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna" - Rig Ved 10/95/15.

In 'Aiterey Puran', preaching of the 'Rig Veda' in harsih chandra -Narad dialogue, Narad says:

"The daughter causes pain"

this is a clear cut contradiction. either Vedas are liying or the author of the statement.

Vedas deal with Sacrificial Hymns, it would be an height of foolishness to derive a statement from the Vedas in support of women. It is equalent to searching a lake in the middle of the desert!

1. 4,22: aditir.adīnā.deva.mātā/ the term means Limitless not independent!

2. Idâ, delightful, worshipful, loveable, splendid, shining One,
Inviolable, full of sap, the Mighty One, most glorious,
These are thy names, O Cow: tell thou the Gods that I act
righteously.(Y.V. 8/43)

3. Having arisen wax thou great, yea, stand thou up
immovable.(Y.V. 11/64)

4. Refer Point no 2 .(Y.V. 8/43)

5. I place upon the lap of Earth the Goddess, a firm auspicious
stone to bring thee children.
Stand on it, thou, greeted with joy, resplendent: a long long
life may Savitar vouchsafe thee.(A.V. 14/1/47)

6. They who have spun, and woven, and extended Goddesses who
have drawn the ends together,
May they invest thee for full long existence. Heiress of lengthen-
ed life, endue this garment,(A.V. 14/1/45)
I with my thought have commerced with divine far-sighted
Steal not my life. I will not thine. May I, O Goddess, in
thy sight find for myself a hero son.(Y.V. 4/23)

7. Having arisen wax thou great, yea, stand thou up
To thee, O Mitra, I entrust this Fire-pan for security. May
it remain without a break.(Y.V. 11/64)

8. Refer point no 2 & 4.(Y.V. 8/43)

9. Refer point no 2 .(Y.V. 8/43)

10. Refer point no 2 .(Y.V. 8/43)

11. Refer point no 2 [d](Y.V. 8/43)

12. I speak to Prithivī the purifier, to patient Earth who groweth
strong through Brahma.
O Earth, may we recline on thee who bearest strength, increase,
portioned share of food, and fatness.(A.V. 12/1/29)

13. Refer point no 2 [d](Y.V. 8/43)

14. . Menā, Not found in .(Nirukta 3/21/2)

15. Lift up your weapons. Drive away the demons. Transport this
woman to the world of virtue.
Dilator, most wise, hath found for her a husband. Let him who
knows, King Bhaga, go before her.(A.V. 14/1/59)

16. O Brahman, let there be born in the kingdom the Brahman
illustrious for religious knowledge; let there be born the
Râjanya, heroic, skilled archer, piercing with shafts,
mighty warrior; the cow giving abundant milk; the ox
good at carrying; the swift courser; the industrious
woman. May Parjanya send rain according to our desire;
may our fruit-bearing plants ripen; may acquisition and
preservation of property be secured to us.(Y.V. 22/22)

17. Refer point no 2 (Y.V. 8/43)

Fanatic Hindu says:

“Women are worthy of worship. They are the fate of the household, the lamp of enlightenment for all in the household. They bring solace to the family and are an integral part of dharmic life. Even heaven is under the control of women. The gods reside in those households where women are worshipped and in households where women are slighted all efforts at improvement go in vain.” Manusmriti 3-56

This beautifully lyrical sloka from the Atharvaveda clearly states that the woman leads the man: “The sun god follows the first illuminated and enlightened goddess Usha (dawn) in the same manner as men emulate and follow women.” Athravaveda Samhita, Part 2, Kanda 27, sukta 107, sloka 5705.

Women were considered to be the embodiment of great virtue and wisdom.
Thus we have: “O bride! May the knowledge of the Vedas be in front of you and behind you, in your centre and in your ends. May you conduct your life after attaining the knowledge of the Vedas. May you be benevolent, the harbinger of good fortune and health and live in great dignity and indeed be illumined in your husband’s home.” Atharva Veda 14-1-64.

Women were allowed full freedom of worship.

“The wife should do agnihotra (yagna), sandhya (puja) and all other daily religious rituals. If, for some reason, her husband is not present, the woman alone has full rights to do yagna.” Rigveda Samhita, part 1, sukta 79, sloka 872.

That women and men are equal in the eyes of dharma is made explicit in a beautiful sloka from the Rigveda: “O women! These mantras are given to you equally (as to men). May your thoughts, too, be harmonious. May your assemblies be open to all without discrimination. Your mind and consciousness should be harmonious. I (the rishi) give you these mantras equally as to men and give you all and equal powers to absorb (the full powers) of these mantras.” Rigveda 10-191-3. 

My Rebuttal:

Manusmrithi Chapter 3:Verse

55. Women must be honoured and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and brothers-in-law, who desire (their own) welfare.

56. ------As mentioned above--------

59. Hence men who seek (their own) welfare, should always honour women on holidays and festivals with (gifts of) ornaments, clothes, and (dainty) food.

This is not selfless love towards women but some kind of Deal, where give and take policy is mentioned. Women are showered with gifts & Ornoments in order to make Men Happy. The sentence "Women are worthy of worship" is nowhere to be found in Manusmrithi, it is just an addition.
Athravaveda Samhita, Part 2, Kanda 27, sukta 107, sloka 5705.

I couldnt find the online referance given above, yet if you look into the AtharvaVeda Samhita it consists of spells, prayers, charms, and hymns. There are prayers to protect crops from lightning and drought, charms against venomous serpents, love spells, healing spells, hundreds of verses, some derived from the Rig veda, all very ancient. which deal with numerous incantations and metaphysical texts.

The term Usha in sanskrit means "goddess of dawn; daughter of Sky and sister of Night".

In reality the cause of Dawn & Dusk is the result of Sun, not the vice-versa. This identification is taken literally in the traditional genealogies of Hindu mythology.

Here is an Example:Atharva Veda
HYMN XII of Book no 19.

A prayer to Ushas or Dawn for wealth and long life

Dawn drives away her sister's gloom, and through her excellence
makes her retrace her path.
Through her may we gain God-appointed treasure, and with
brave sons be glad through hundred winters.

Are Women considered to be the embodiment of great virtue and wisdom?

Atharva Veda 14-1-64. does state;

Let prayer he offered up before and after, prayer in the middle,
lastly, all around her.
Reaching the Gods' inviolable castle shine in thy lord's world
gentle and auspicious.

But it is related On the Bridal of Sūryā, marriage ceremonies in general.

It is also quoted out of context.

See what other verses state:Atharva Veda BOOK XIV HYMN I

13 The bridal pomp of Sūryā, which Savitar started, moved along.
In Maghā days are oxen slain, in Phalgunis they wed the bride.

14 When on your three-wheeled chariot, O ye Asvins, ye came as
suitors unto Sūrya's bridal,

50 I take thy hand in mine for happy fortune that thou mayst reach
old age with me thy consort,
Gods, Aryaman, Bhaga, Savitar, Purandhi, have given thee to be
my household's mistress.

51 Bhaga and Savitar the God have clasped that hand of thine in
By rule and law thou art my wife: the master of thy house am I.

Rigveda Samhita, part 1, sukta 79, sloka 872.

Such online referance is not to be found

Rigveda 10-191-3.

"The place is common, common the assembly, common the mind, so be their thought united.
A common purpose do I lay before you, and worship with your general oblation."

The shloka dosent deal about women at all, but about the Agni gathering up his friends all ancient gods in assembly.

Wether you consider Goddess Mother.. the three goddess ila amba amabika or not

So there is no doubt.. women have no regards in Vedas, as more than 50 million females are missing from the land of so called Godesses from the beguining of Vedic Dark ages.

Thank you.


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